London attacked

[Old Smoothound]

Well said Darren

We have to applaud the police for doing there job in very difficult circumstances.

Rather them than me and to those who think they can do it better.....you need to apply for a job now as the training probably takes years to complete.

Taking a life is a sad thing to do in any event. The family must be deeply hurt by it all.

But let us not forget these things can happen when arms are used to protect us from bombers or complete nutters intent on maiming and killing us.

I for one have complete faith in our police and Armed forces.

[lucky]

Originally Posted by Plod

One point I have to take issue with is the statement that people are more concerned about being shot by the police than blown up.

Darren if you recall I think you will find that it was fairly widely reported in the press that the shooting of Mr Menezes had caused concerns amongst ethnic minorities regarding their safety - in particular the Asian community and fears were voiced that confidence in the police had been damaged to such an extent that the enquiry could be compromised in that people from that community would be less likely to come forward to assist the police in their enquiries. As it stands overall the police and security services have done an excellent job with the main suspects now apprehended in a very short space of time however a serious and tragic error was made in the case of Mr Menezes and this now needs to be thoroughly investigated. If the officer involved acted within existing guidelines he should rightfully be exonerated from personal blame however Omahayank's post suggested that Mr. Menezes had done something "stupid". This is by no means established as are many other details about the incident.

As regards the Operation Kratos guidelines or "Shoot to Kill Policy" which was adopted after 9/11 it is simply not certain that this is an effective way of preventing suicide bombings or is even an appropriate policy to be employed in a city such as London. The policy has been adopted from the tactics used by the Israeli security forces - well last time I looked there were still plenty of innocent Israelis being killed by suicide bombers in Israel and still plenty of innocent Palestinians being killed by the Israeli security forces in response. I'd really rather not see London like that.

Perhaps the reason why the Operation Kratos guidelines are not appropriate here is simply because we in London might just value the life of of an innocent Brazilian electician somewhat more than the Israeli security forces value the life of an innocent Palestinian. Whatever the case the policy certainly hasn't worked as yet (quite the opposite) and a lot of people in London would simply be more at ease with a policy that concentrated on traditional methods of intelligence, investigation and arrest rather than one of kill on suspicion and suffer the consequences later.

Ask yourself what the situation would have been if Mr Menezes had not been Brazilian but an innocent Asian instead.

[Plod]

Lucky, I agree with you on most of what you said.

Whatever the case the policy certainly hasn't worked as yet and a lot of people would simply be more at ease with a policy that concentrated on traditional methods of intelligence, investigation and arrest rather than one of kill on suspicion.

The thing is, Kratos was never intended to help detect and prevent suicide bombers from getting onto the streets in a semtex vest. It is what to do WHEN you get to that point. What else can you do? I wish there was an alternative, but it's not like a bank robber holding a hostage. What can you say to a person who has prepared himself over months and months to die for his cause? I'm not saying it will have a very good success rate, but something is better than nothing, isn't it?

If the officer involved acted within existing guidelines he should rightfully be exonerated from personal blame

The problem is, he and he alone is responsible for pulling the trigger. I have argued this point for years when we are taught self defence, and told that in certain circumstances we can employ a pre emptive strike. All well and good, but a year down line when you are gripping the rail for assault, trying to justify your actions and descirbe the situation whilst standing in a courtroom, the bosses will not be the ones who will lose their job, pension, freedom, etc. You're on your own. Their attitude is, we trained you and told you how to do it properly, the rest is up to you.

caused concerns amongst ethnic minorities regarding their safety

I agree with you there. This has always been the case, and it is a difficult problem to address. Whenever a minority group is specifically targetted they will rightly feel victimised and scared. We have to put this into perspective. I would bet my mortgage that there are less people per head shot by police in the UK than almost any other country in the world. Don't get me wrong, one is too many and this is little comfort to Mr Menezes family, but I'd rather live here than, for example, Brazil, where their officers have regularly gone into the slums of Sao Paulo and killed dozens of street kids, for crime prevention purposes.
An interesting piece on the TV the other day regarding targetted stop and search under the Terrorism Act. Some asians are up in arms over it, saying they are being picked on. Then they interviewed a young waiter who said that he was fully behind it, as the suspects ARE mainly asian and so you aren't going to look for white people. As you say, you want intelligence led policing. That is what that is, but it will cause just as much unrest in the Asian communities.

This is a real can of worms, and there are no easy answers. In fact, I don't really know where we go from here. I sometimes wonder what sort of world my 4 year old and 6 year old will be living in when they are my age. Did I do the right thing bringing them into this world in the first place? Depressing, isn't it?

Darren

[Omahayank]

Wow, what a can of worms I opened!!!!! I dont mean to imply that Mr.Menezes was stupid, but, doing anything other than exactly what an armed person (cop or not) tells you to do is..."stupid". You are never going to out-run or hide from a bullet (especially if your name is on it! Maybe we Americans are kind of fatalistic that way.)
I, for one am going to do anything a police officer tells me to do. In a very deliberate manner with my hands in plain sight at all times, it will be "Yes sir & No sir" the whole time. Because I(&Americans) believe "You are innocent untill proven guilty." Where I diverge from most of my countrymen is the additional statement "...in front of a judge". Yes in a court room with your lawer, you are presumed to be innocent.
When you are standing in front of a cop with a weapon drawn, You ARE GUILTY of WHATEVER he/she thinks you did!!(esp.a female...it seems) So Keep your fat yap shut and do exactly what he/she tells you!!! You can bawl about your rights in court, and IF you win in criminal court you will probably win in civil court and cash in.
We very recently had a case just across the river in Iowa of an Iowa state patrol officer blowing a guys head off and spattering it all over his 12 y.o. daughter as they sat in a pick up truck. The shooting came after a "high speed chase" and he finally stopped. The cruiser video shows the youngish cop running up to the driver side of the truck, smash the window w/a heavy flashlight and fire. Then he ran back out of screen, when he came back in screen he repeatedly asked the dead man "Are you alright sir?" Clearly he had let the adrenaline of the chase cloud his judgment. But he was still acuitted in criminal court BECAUSE of the chase. He will probably loose his shorts in the civil case.
A thousand years ago(it seems) I was an exchange student sponsored by a private organization. At one of the orientation meetings for all of the students going to a variety of countries, the director of the program told us in so many words "Stay away from the police, in whatever country you are in. Yes, they are there to help if you need them. But, for the most part it is best to avoid them...so dont do anything (stupid!! And dont get hurt or killed & keep your pants on, we dont need an international incident-[I paraphrased the last bit]).
Please let me say I respect the police and am very glad its their job and not mine (I'd shoot 1st & ask questions 2nd) and my use of the word "cop" is in no way meant to be offensive. Locally it seems aprx. 20% of officers are offended,40% of cops say it too, and the rest dont care.
Lord keep us ALL till the bombings, killing & war stops!!!!!

[lucky]

Originally Posted by Omahayank

I dont mean to imply that Mr.Menezes was stupid, but, doing anything other than exactly what an armed person (cop or not) tells you to do is..."stupid".

It might be an idea to clear up a bit of a misconception that people seem to have about the Operation Kratos guidelines that the armed police are currently operating under here in the UK. In my earlier post I only raised the question of when and how Mr Menezes was challenged simply because the police in their initial statements claimed that had issued such a challenge. The reality of the current situation is however that under the Operation Kratos guidelines the police are not actually obliged to issue such a challenge. I expect Darren can confirm this. If you think about it for a minute it makes perfectly logical sense. If a particular individual is identified as presenting a serious and imminent suicide bombing threat it would be absolutely ridiculous for the police to surrender the element of suprise by declaring their presence and provide the suspect a last ditch opportunity to trigger the device. The way things stand at the moment you can be walking down the street, be identified as a terrorist suspect and have a bullet put through your brain stem by a police marksman without any warning whatsoever. Under the Operation Kratos guidelines that are now in place the police are not obliged to issue any prior warning.

Thanks for your post Darren. I very much concur with the vast majority of what you've said and share your long term concerns. I'm afraid I'm a bit pressed for time at the moment but will try and get back to you as regards the use of these new guidelines and their suitability for dealing with the current sutuation here in London and the UK in general.

[Omahayank]

Terrorism is a situation that many of us in the U.S., havent come to grips with and just don't seem to understand...yet(I hope never) We've only had one real "attention getting"-"newsworthy" terrorist event.

The Oklahoma City bombing was just a screwball "militia" nut. One of those that thinks the "guvmunt" is looking up your @$$ w/a microscope, reading all your mail, listening to all your phone conversations, and just generally plotting to kill or enslave you.

We still dont know how to act or what to do. Since 9-11 The gov. has/is spending millions of dollars trying to "prepare". TV commertials, web sites, pouring tons of cash on police and fire deptartments, I've even volunteered to act as a disaster victim in a local emergency services excercise. It was fun but I hope we NEVER need it. I was just an ignorant volunteer & I could see things I thought were bonked.

It just doesn't seem like there IS an answer. I've even wondered, out loud, to my friends, if a ruthless dictator like Sadam Husein isnt what a country like Irac needs just to keep their people in line, to keep them from killing each other much less wandering the globe killing everyone else???? Their women need to dress head to toe in black robes and veils just to hide and protect themselves, what chance does the rest of the world have?

ps. Lord help us all. Pres. Bush just appointed John Bolton, ambasador to the U.N. We've strained some of our friendships before, I hope this guy doesn't make us more enemies, he seems to have the diplomacy of a land mine??? We'll see, pray LOUD