London attacked

[Omahayank]

I'm beside myself, I don't know what to say, except that everyone I speak to and I are with you, and praying for you. I am so,so sorry to the families of those killed and only the best wishes for a fast recovery for the injured. News of this started to sift thru about 4am here on the insomniac news and alot more detail on the regular news at 5. You've just got to wonder "What do they hope to accomplish by committing such acts" and how the he11 can they justify it to themselves and god? The way it seems is that they are just giddy to 'kill americans' in a holy-war(jihad) and go strait to heaven, so they're flocking to Irac to do just that. Barring that, any westerner will do. They are supposedly forbidden to kill other Moslems, they killed close to 300 on 9-11. Another thing I wonder is if so many Moslems, the majority(?), are opposed to acts of terrorism like this, WHY ARE THEY SO QUIET ABOUT IT? Why not when a cleric declairs 'Jihad' why doesn't a group of reasonable clerics 'countermand' it(for lack of the right word & send them straight to he11)? Chins up folks, don't let them see it hurts!

[Rob M]

Thanks for the sentiments mate, but it'll take more than this to break the British resolve. I just hope those responsible are caught and dealt with quickly

Rob

[Fishing Forum Admin]

Well I think every thought should be with the families that have lost thier - mummy / daddy / daughter or son today

I would like to post my EXACT THOUGHTS on this but I do understand younger people read this forum

We will never and I mean never let such a few people ruin OUR great county

A massive thank you to the 999 guys and girls who rushed in where others would not dare to go

[fishingbonsai]

Best wishes to all affected.

Letsa hope we catch the utter scum that did it.

[Devon Born & Dorset Bred]

I would like to praise the British Security forces and Emergency Sevices for a great response. We dont know the half of what is going on behind the scenes, and i am amazed that we have not seen this any earlier. I think we as a nation have dealt and will deal with this very well indeed!!!

[Omahayank]

I have to say, and my buddies agree. Your police seem to be on the ball. We're hearing, in the news nearly every day about more suspects and more being arrested. As for that poor Brazilian S.O.B, I feel sorry for him but he should've known better than to do something stupid on a train in these times.

[lucky]

Originally Posted by Omahayank

As for that poor Brazilian S.O.B, I feel sorry for him but he should've known better than to do something stupid on a train in these times.

It is not entirely clear that he actually did anything stupid at all. One eyewitness report has now stated that it was actually a police officer who leapt the turnstiles in the tube station rather than the Brazilian who may have simply gone through the barrier using his travelcard totally oblivious to the fact that he was being followed by the police. On this one I think it would be advisable to "Watch this Space" for the moment while the enquiry continues. Whatever the outcome the police have made a huge mistake - it just remains to be seen how that mistake came about and the actual extent of their error.

[Ben]

i dont think the police did anything wrong, they are just doing there jobs
you can never be to careful in this day and age
if the person had turned out to be a bomber then they would be accused of making a "huge mistake" if they didnt do anything

[lucky]

Originally Posted by Ben

if the person had turned out to be a bomber then they would be accused of making a "huge mistake" if they didnt do anything

These are a couple of huge "ifs".

Like I said wait for the outcome enquiry and you should be able to see just how well the police did their job on this particular occassion. There are a lot of questions beginning to emerge regarding what the police initially said had happened and what is coming out now. There's plenty of CCTV evidence available so things should become clearer as to what exactly went down in the tube station as the enquiry proceeds. A couple of things that are now known is that the way the police handled things ended up in total chaos with hundreds of passengers running from the train terrified for their lives and that that the driver of the tube train when he heard the gunshots and saw terrified passengers running from the train tried to run to safety himself down the tunnel. Unfortunately for him he was pursued by armed police and dragged back to the platform with a gun firmly pressed to the side of his head. Thankfully they didn't actually shoot him too. The police have now apologised to the driver who is still in a state of shock. Why was the Brazilian followed in the first place? It is now claimed that Mr de Menezes was only wearing a denim jacket and not the heavy out-of-season padded coat as originally claimed by police. Also why was he allowed to catch that bus if he was a suspect bomber? Similairly why was a he even allowed to enter the tube station? How was he challenged? Did the police clearly identify themselves? - the police claimed that they did. It was originally reported that he plain clothed officers said they donned their baseball-style police caps so Mr de Menezes would be able to identify them. The police said they did this. The CCTV will show this if this was the case. Apparently Mr de Menezes was approached by uniformed officers a couple of weeks for a routine search ago on entering Brixton tube station and fully complied with the officers' request. What made him panic and run this time? It appears that Mr Menezes was not in the country illegally as was originally suggested so this wasn't the reason.

As I said there's a lot more to come out about this incident but one thing that is for sure is that a lot of people in London are actually now more concerned about being shot by the police than being blown up by terrorists since this occured.

This is all quite aside from the question that is this "Shoot to Kill Policy" an effective way to stop suicide bombers anyway?

Sir Ian Blair, the Metropolitan police commissioner has said that police have now dealt with 250 suicide bomb scares since the 7 July atrocities and have come close to opening fire seven times. Indicating a small gap between his fingers, he said: "There have been seven times when we have got as close to calling it as 'that' and we haven't. An officer is faced with a decision as to whether to call a particular operation. That has happened seven times." I'm absolutely sure the police would prefer the de Menezes shooting to be seen in the light of that this was the single one they unfortunately got wrong out of a large number of other high pressure situations but it is somewhat disturbing that intelligence has led them to already target 250 innocent individuals as possible suicide bombers and that on a further seven occassions they were dangerously close to getting it tragically wrong again while not even targeting a single terrorist amongst all those 250 people. Not a particularly good record so far I'm afraid.

Apart from the fact this "Shoot to Kill" policy doesn't seem to be paying any dividends at the moment (quite the opposite in fact) I'm afraid there just seems to be a few too many "ifs" involved in it for my liking as well as there being a complete lack of evidence that it is an effective means of tackling suicide bombers in the first place.

All the "Shoot to Kill Policy" has to recommend itself at the moment is a dead innocent Brazilian.

[Plod]

Hi guys, I'm completely biased so my post will be short, to the point and FACTUAL. Having worked in the Met for 15 years and dealt with two IRA bombings (Ealing and Docklands) I would say that they have a better idea than most on how to deal with terrorists. However, this new threat, post 9/11 and the foreign policies (right or wrong) undertaken by the government, has caused widespread concern at Scotland Yard, and for each of the 30,000 or so officers who may face one of these incidents any day.

The biggest problem is, how do you deal with a suicide bomber? Someone who is that committed to their cause and willing to die for it will not back down for anything, so the only way is to neutralise the threat. The only way to do that successfully is to shoot at the brain stem, to stop reflex reaction triggering a device. It has never been deemed a "Shoot to Kill" policy as portrayed rather dramatically by the media, but when shooting someone in the head, this is the tragic outcome 99% of the time.

The whys and wherefors of how we have ended up in this terrible situation is one thing. The problem now is, we as police officers have to give the public the protection to go about day to day business in a reasonalby secure environment. If anyone on this forum can suggest ways of doing that without the possibility of this tragic event happening, then I'd love to hear it.
One point I have to take issue with is the statement that people are more concerned about being shot by the police than blown up. My family and friends are all in London, and none of them have stated this. I haven't even heard this on the TV, or read it in the newspapers. I find that comment a little bit worrying if it is the case, as we police by consent in this country and if the confidence of the public is that bad in our abilities, I'll hang my hat up now.

The poor brazilian man losing his life is awful, and a tragedy. However, take a minute to think about the officer. I'm not asking you to feel sorry for him, but he is probably going through hell himself now. I was asked to go to firearms, but I refused, as you are put in an impossible position as soon as you strap it on your hip. Damned if you, damned if you don't. "IF" the brazilian male had been a bomber and they had not shot him, they would have been seen to neglect their duty. Bear in mind, you do not have plain clothes armed police swanning around London following every Tom, Dick and Harry. Their must have been a lot of intelligence (Flawed or not) which gave rise to the officers extreme reaction. Despite what some people perceive of the police, we are human beings and do not routinely shoot people 8 times for the hell of it.

He will probably face a criminal trial for manslaughter, and have to rely on self defence as his only option. A stated case R v Beckford says that if the defendant had a true and honest held belief that they would be the victim of assault then they can use a degree of force reasonable in the circumstances as he honestly believes them to be. Tragic, yes, but would any of you take up arms and do what he was doing? Thanks for your patience if you got this far.

Cheers, Darren